Replace Hamas? With What?

 What we have been hearing for weeks now is that it is necessary for Israel to replace Hamas as the government of Gaza.  A very laudable goal, seeing as how Hamas is at the same time a group of genocidal madmen and and among the most corrupt thieves on the face of the earth.  It's hard to think of a worse government than Hamas, but what will come along if Hamas vanishes?


What follows below is a long series of excerpts from the State Department's annual report on the human rights behavior of the world's governments.  These are quotes from their evaluation of every Arab government.  I don't expect anyone to read it all, but try skimming some of them.  You will discover that every single one of them is a sinkhole of dictatorship, utter disregard for the rights of any opposition group, violent oppression and crushing of dissent.  This is the reality of government in the 460 million person strong Arab world.  Can you find a single one of these governments that you would like to see in charge in Gaza?  Can you see a single one of them that would offer Gaza's people a deal in life significantly better than they have now?  What hope could you possibly muster that this new Arab government would be any different than all the other ones?


In my mind, the thought that Hamas would be replaced with a decent government which would use the massive foreign aid that comes to Gaza to benefit its own people is a ludicrous delusion.  The truth is that it is going to take far more than eliminating Hamas to render Gaza a fit place to live for its 2 million inhabitants, or a decent neighbor to any country not as crazed as Hamas is.  Tell me I'm wrong, but look at the evidence first:


_________________________________________

Algeria:  "Observers characterized the elections as well organized and conducted without significant problems or irregularities, but they noted restrictions on civil liberties during the election period and lack of transparency in vote-counting procedures." i.e. it's a dictatorship.  "Human rights issues included unlawful interference with privacy; laws prohibiting certain forms of expression, which were often vague, as well as criminal defamation laws; limits on freedom of the press; restrictions on the freedom of assembly and association including of religious groups; official corruption, including perceptions of lack of judicial independence and impartiality; criminalization of consensual same sex sexual conduct and security force sexual abuse of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and intersex (LGBTI) persons; and trafficking in persons."


Bahrain:  A dictatorship. "Human rights issues included allegations of torture; arbitrary detention; political prisoners; arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; restrictions on freedom of expression, the press, and the internet, including censorship, site blocking, and criminal libel; substantial interference with the rights of peaceful assembly and freedom of association, including restrictions on independent nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) from freely operating in the country; significant restrictions on freedom of movement, including bans on international travel and revocation of citizenship; and restrictions on political participation, including the banning of former members of al-Wifaq and Wa’ad from standing as candidates in the elections."


the Comoros Islands:  "The 2019 presidential elections were not free and fair, and international and domestic observers noted the elections were marked by significant irregularities. The opposition did not recognize the results due to allegations of ballot stuffing, intimidation, and harassment."  i.e. a dictatorship thinly disguised as a democracy.  "Human rights issues included torture; harsh and life-threatening prison conditions; political prisoners; use of excessive force against detainees; restrictions on freedom of movement; corruption; criminalization of same-sex sexual conduct, trafficking in persons, and ineffective enforcement of laws protecting workers’ rights.  Impunity for violations of human rights was widespread."


Djibouti:  "Human rights issues included arbitrary treatment by government agents; harsh and life-threatening prison conditions; arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; criminal libel; restrictions on free assembly and association; abusing and detaining government critics; government abridgement of the ability of citizens to choose or influence significantly their government; government corruption; violence against women with inadequate government action for prosecution and accountability, including female genital mutilation/cutting (FGM/C); restrictions on worker rights; and child labor.

Impunity was a problem. The government seldom took steps to prosecute or punish officials who committed abuses"


Egypt:  "Presidential elections in 2018 saw challengers to incumbent President Abdel Fattah al-Sisi withdraw ahead of the election, citing personal decisions, political pressure, legal troubles, and unfair competition, and in some cases, they were arrested for alleged abuses of candidacy rules. Domestic and international organizations expressed concern that government limitations on freedoms of association, peaceful assembly, and expression severely constrained broad participation in the political process"  i.e. a dictatorship thinly disguised as a representative government.  "Human rights issues included unlawful or arbitrary killings by the government or its agents and terrorist groups; forced disappearances; torture; arbitrary detention; harsh and life-threatening prison conditions; arbitrary arrest and detention; political prisoners; arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; undue restrictions on free expression, the press, and the internet, including censorship, site blocking, and criminal libel; substantial interference with the rights of peaceful assembly and freedom of association, including government control over registration and financing of nongovernmental organizations (NGOs); restrictions on political participation; use of the law to arbitrarily arrest and prosecute lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and intersex (LGBTI) persons; violence targeting LGBTI persons and members of other minority groups, and use of forced or compulsory child labor.  Attacks by terrorist organizations caused arbitrary and unlawful deprivation of life. Terrorist groups conducted deadly attacks on government, civilian, and security targets throughout the country, including places of worship."


Iraq:  "Civilian authorities did not maintain effective control over some elements of the security forces, particularly certain units of the Popular Mobilization Forces (PMF) that were aligned with Iran.


Violence continued throughout the year, largely fueled by the actions of ISIS. The government declared victory over ISIS in December 2017 after drastically reducing the group’s ability to commit abuses and atrocities, but members of the group continued to carry out deadly attacks and kidnappings. Human rights issues included reports of unlawful or arbitrary killings by some members of the Iraq Security Forces (ISF), particularly Iran-aligned elements of the PMF; forced disappearances; torture; arbitrary detention; harsh and life-threatening prison and detention center conditions; arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; restrictions on free expression, the press, and the internet, including censorship, site blocking, and criminal libel; legal restrictions on freedom of movement of women; widespread official corruption; unlawful recruitment or use of child soldiers by Iran-aligned elements of the PMF that operate outside government control; trafficking in persons; criminalization of lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and intersex (LGBTI) status or conduct; violence targeting LGBTI persons; threats of violence against internally displaced persons (IDPs) and returnee populations perceived to have been affiliated with ISIS; and restrictions on worker rights, including restrictions on formation of independent unions and reports of child labor."


Jordan:   a "constitutional monarchy," i.e. a dictatorship.  "Human rights issues included allegations of torture by security officials, including at least one death in custody; arbitrary arrest and detention, including of activists and journalists; infringements on citizens’ privacy rights; undue restrictions on free expression and the press, including criminalization of libel, censorship, and internet site blocking; restrictions on freedom of association and assembly; reports of refoulement of Syrian and Palestinian refugees to Syria without adjudication of whether they had a well-founded fear of persecution; allegations of corruption, including in the judiciary; “honor” killings of women; violence against lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and intersex (LGBTI) persons; and conditions amounting to forced labor in some sectors.  Impunity remained widespread"


Kuwait:  a "constitutional, hereditary emirate", i.e. a dictatorship.  "Human rights issues included reports of torture; arbitrary detention; political prisoners; arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; restrictions on free expression, the press, and the internet, including criminalization of libel, censorship, and internet site blocking; interference with the rights of peaceful assembly and freedom of association; restrictions on freedom of movement; trafficking in persons; criminalization of consensual adult male same-sex sexual conduct; and reports of forced labor, principally among foreign workers."


Lebanon,  "Significant human rights issues included credible reports of: unlawful or arbitrary killing; torture; arbitrary arrests and detentions; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary; serious restrictions on freedom of expression, including violence, threats of violence or unjustified arrests or prosecutions against journalists, censorship, and enforcement of or threat to enforce criminal libel laws to limit expression; serious restrictions on internet freedom; threats of refoulement of refugees to a country where they could face torture or persecution; serious high-level and widespread official corruption; crimes involving violence or threats of violence targeting lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, or intersex persons; existence and enforcement of laws criminalizing consensual same-sex sexual conduct between adults; and existence of the worst forms of child labor.


The country suffered from endemic corruption. Although the law provides for prosecution and punishment of officials who committed human rights abuses or engaged in corruption, enforcement remained a significant problem, with perpetrators benefiting from widespread impunity for human rights abuses, including evading or interfering in judicial processes.


Nonstate armed groups, including Hizballah and Palestinian militias, operated with relative impunity, using intimidation, harassment, and occasionally violence against perceived critics and opponents. Armed members of these forces controlled access to certain neighborhoods, camps, and other areas where they effectively operated outside the reach and authority of the government. These organizations allegedly also operated unofficial detention facilities in which they unlawfully detained individuals, sometimes incommunicado, for indefinite periods of time."


Libya:  A sham democracy, chosen in corrupt elections. "Significant human rights problems included credible reports of: unlawful or arbitrary killings; enforced disappearance; torture or other physical abuses perpetrated by armed groups on all sides; harsh and life-threatening conditions in prison and detention facilities; arbitrary arrest or detention; political prisoners or detainees; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary; arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; serious abuses in a conflict, including widespread civilian deaths or harm; serious restrictions on free expression and media, including violence against journalists and enforcement of or threat to enforce criminal libel laws to limit expression; substantial interference with freedom of association and peaceable assembly; refoulement of refugees and asylum seekers to a country where they would face torture or persecution; serious government corruption; lack of investigation of and accountability for gender-based violence; threats of violence targeting members of ethnic minority groups and foreigners; trafficking in persons, including forced labor; enforcement of or threat to enforce laws criminalizing consensual same-sex sexual conduct between adults; and significant restrictions on workers’ freedom of association, including limits on collective bargaining and the right to strike.


Human rights abuses, by groups aligned with the government and the Libyan National army, nonstate and foreign actors including mercenaries from various countries, and terrorist organizations, were widespread throughout the year. These included killings, indiscriminate attacks on civilians, arbitrary detention, and torture


Morocco:  "Significant human rights issues included credible reports of: torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment by some members of the security forces; political prisoners; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary; arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; serious restrictions on free expression and media, including unjustified arrests or prosecutions of journalists; censorship and enforcement of or threat to enforce criminal libel to limit expression; substantial interference with the freedom of assembly and freedom of association; serious government corruption; lack of investigation of and accountability for gender-based violence; crimes involving violence or threats of violence targeting lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, or intersex persons; and the enforcement of laws criminalizing consensual same-sex sexual conduct between adults." 


Mauritania:  Mauritania is an Islamic Republic with a constitution grounded in French civil law and sharia.  "Significant human rights issues included credible reports of: harsh and life-threatening prison conditions; arbitrary arrests; serious restrictions on free expression and media, including criminal blasphemy laws; serious government corruption; lack of investigation and accountability for gender-based violence including rape, domestic violence, female genital mutilation/cutting, sexual exploitation and abuse, and other forms of such violence; trafficking in persons, including continued existence of slavery and slavery-related practices; crimes involving violence against lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, or intersex persons; and some of the worst forms of child labor."

 

Oman:  "Significant human rights issues included credible reports of: arbitrary arrest or detention; arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; serious restrictions on freedom of expression and media, including censorship and criminal libel and blasphemy laws; serious restrictions on internet freedom; substantial interference with the rights of peaceful assembly and freedom of association; serious restrictions on political participation; laws criminalizing consensual same-sex sexual conduct that were not widely enforced; and labor exploitation of foreign migrants."


Qatar:  "Significant human rights issues included credible reports of: serious restrictions on free expression, including the existence of criminal libel laws; substantial interference with the freedom of peaceful assembly and freedom of association, including overly restrictive laws on the organization, funding, or operation of nongovernmental organizations and civil society organizations; restrictions on migrant workers’ freedom of movement, access to justice, and vulnerability to abuses, including forced labor; inability of citizens to change their government peacefully in free and fair elections; serious and unreasonable restrictions on political participation, including a complete prohibition on political parties; lack of investigation and accountability for gender-based violence; existence of laws criminalizing consensual same-sex sexual conduct; and prohibitions on independent trade unions."


Saudi Arabia:  "Significant human rights issues included credible reports of: unlawful or arbitrary killings, including extrajudicial killings; enforced disappearances; torture and cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment by government agents; harsh and life-threatening prison conditions; arbitrary arrest and detention; political prisoners or detainees; transnational repression against individuals in another country; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary; arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; punishment of family members for alleged offenses by a relative; serious abuses in a conflict, including related to civilian casualties and damage to civilian infrastructure as a result of airstrikes in Yemen; serious restrictions on freedom of expression and media, including unjustified arrests or prosecutions against journalists and others, and censorship; serious restrictions on internet freedom; substantial interference with the freedom of peaceful assembly and freedom of association, including overly restrictive laws on the organization, funding, or operation of nongovernmental organizations and civil society organizations; particularly severe restrictions of religious freedom; restrictions on freedom of movement and residence within the territory of a state and on the right to leave the country; inability of citizens to choose their government peacefully through free and fair elections; serious and unreasonable restrictions on political participation; serious government restrictions on domestic and international human rights organizations; lack of investigation of and accountability for gender-based violence, including but not limited to domestic and intimate partner violence; criminalization of consensual same-sex sexual activity; and outlawing of independent trade unions or significant restrictions on workers’ freedom of association.

In several cases the government did not investigate, prosecute, or punish officials accused of committing human rights abuses, contributing to an environment of impunity.


Somalia:  "Significant human rights issues included credible reports of: unlawful or arbitrary killings, including extrajudicial killings; torture or cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment by the government; harsh and life-threatening prison conditions; arbitrary arrest or detention; political prisoners or detainees; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary; serious abuses in a conflict, including reportedly unlawful or widespread civilian deaths or harm, enforced disappearances or abductions, torture and physical abuses or punishment, and unlawful recruitment or use of child soldiers; serious restrictions on freedom of expression and media, including violence or threats of violence against journalists, unjustified arrests or prosecutions of journalists, censorship, and the enforcement of criminal libel laws; substantial interference with the freedom of peaceful assembly and freedom of association; inability of citizens to change their government peacefully through free and fair elections; serious and unreasonable restrictions on political participation; serious government corruption; lack of investigation of and accountability for gender-based violence; crimes involving violence or threats of violence targeting members of national/racial/ethnic minority groups; existence of laws criminalizing consensual same-sex sexual conduct between adults, although information regarding their enforcement was unclear; and existence of the worst forms of child labor.

Impunity generally remained the norm...

Conflict involving the government, militias, and al-Shabaab resulted in death, injury, and displacement of civilians. Al-Shabaab committed most of the severe human rights abuses, particularly terrorist attacks on civilians and targeted killings, including summary executions and religiously and politically motivated killings; forced disappearances; physical abuses and other inhuman treatment; rape; and attacks on employees of nongovernmental organizations and the United Nations. Al-Shabaab also blocked humanitarian assistance, conscripted child soldiers, and restricted freedoms of expression, including for the press, peaceful assembly, and movement.


Sudan:  "Significant human rights issues included credible reports of: unlawful or arbitrary killings; cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment by the government; harsh and life-threatening prison conditions; arbitrary arrest or detention; political prisoners or detainees; arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; serious abuses in a conflict, including killings, abductions, physical abuse or punishment, and unlawful recruitment or use of child soldiers; serious restrictions on free expression and media, including threats of violence and acts of violence against journalists, censorship, and enforcement of criminal libel and slander laws; serious restrictions on internet freedom; substantial interference with the freedom of association, including overly restrictive laws on the organization, funding, or operation of nongovernmental and civil society organizations; serious government corruption; lack of investigation of and accountability for gender-based violence, including domestic and intimate partner violence, sexual violence, child, early and forced marriage, female genital mutilation/cutting, and conflict-related sexual violence; laws criminalizing lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, or intersex persons; and existence of the worst forms of child labor.

In Darfur and the Two Areas, paramilitary forces and rebel groups reportedly continued sporadically to commit killings, rape, and other physical abuses and mistreatment of civilians. Local militias maintained substantial influence due to lack of deployment of the Joint Security-Keeping Force and widespread impunity. Intercommunal violence originating from land-tenure disputes and resource scarcity continued to result in civilian deaths, particularly in East, South, and North Darfur, as well as Blue Nile State. There were also human rights abuses reported in Abyei, a region that Sudan and South Sudan both claimed. These abuses generally stemmed from local clashes regarding cattle and land between the Ngok Dinka and Misseriya Indigenous groups. Reports were difficult to verify due to access challenges. Weak rule of law persisted in Darfur, and banditry, criminality, and intercommunal violence were the main causes of insecurity."

 

Syria:  "The regime’s multiple security branches operated autonomously with wide-ranging and overlapping areas of jurisdiction. Regime-affiliated militias, such as the National Defense Forces, integrated and performed similar roles without defined jurisdiction...There were credible reports that members of the security forces committed numerous abuses, some of which the UN Commission of Inquiry for Syria considered to be war crimes. Civilian authorities possessed limited influence over foreign military or paramilitary organizations operating in the country, including proregime forces such as the Russian armed forces, Iran-affiliated Hizballah, and Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, members of which also committed numerous abuses.

Significant human rights issues included credible reports of: unlawful or arbitrary killings; forced disappearance; torture and other cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment by the regime and other actors, including torture involving sexual violence, harsh and life-threatening prison conditions, including denial of medical care; arbitrary detention; political prisoners and detainees; transnational repression against individuals in another country; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary; arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; punishment of family members for alleged offenses by a relative; serious abuses in a conflict, including unlawful and widespread civilian deaths and harm, enforced disappearances and abductions, torture, physical abuses and punishment, unlawful recruitment and use of child soldiers by the regime and other armed actors; serious restrictions on freedom of expression and media, including violence and threats of violence against journalists, unjustified arrests and prosecutions of journalists, censorship, and the enforcement of and the threat to enforce criminal libel laws and blasphemy laws to limit expression; serious restrictions on internet freedom; substantial interference with the freedom of peaceful assembly and freedom of association, including overly restrictive laws on the organization, funding, or operation of nongovernmental and civil society organizations; restrictions on freedom of movement and residence within the territory of a state and on the right to leave the country; inability of citizens to change their government peacefully through free and fair elections; serious and unreasonable restrictions on political participation; serious government corruption; serious government restrictions on and harassment of domestic and international human rights organizations; lack of investigation of and accountability for gender-based violence including domestic or intimate partner violence, sexual violence, workplace violence, child, early, and forced marriage, femicide, and other forms of such violence crimes involving violence or threats of violence targeting members of ethnic groups and indigenous peoples including Kurdish and Yezidi residents; trafficking in persons; crimes involving violence, threats of violence, and severe discrimination targeting lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and intersex persons; existence and enforcement of laws criminalizing consensual same-sex sexual conduct between adults; and severe restrictions on workers’ freedom of association and other rights.


The regime took no steps to identify, investigate, prosecute, or punish officials who committed human rights violations or abuses or who engaged in corruption.


Regime-linked paramilitary groups reportedly engaged in frequent abuses, including massacres; indiscriminate killings; kidnapping of civilians; physical abuse, including sexual violence; and unlawful detentions. Regime-aligned militias reportedly launched numerous attacks that killed and injured civilians."


Tunisia:  "Significant human rights issues included credible reports of: torture by government agents; arbitrary arrests or detentions; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary; serious restrictions on freedom of expression and media, including arrests or prosecutions of journalists, censorship, or enforcement of or threat to enforce criminal libel laws to limit expression; government corruption; discrimination and societal abuses; crimes involving violence or threats of violence targeting lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, and intersex persons; laws criminalizing consensual same-sex sexual conduct between adults and the enforcement of those laws; and the worst forms of child labor.


...investigations into abuses by police, security forces, and detention center officials lacked transparency and frequently encountered long delays and procedural obstacles. High-profile investigations into former government officials, members of parliament, and businesspersons on corruption charges also lacked transparency.


the United Arab Emirates:  "Significant human rights issues included credible reports of: arbitrary arrest and detention, including those involving hostile prison conditions such as incommunicado detention, by government officials; political prisoners; transnational repression against individuals in another country; unlawful government interference with privacy; serious restrictions on free expression and media, including censorship and enforcement of or threat to enforce criminal libel laws; serious restrictions on internet freedom; substantial interference with the freedom of peaceful assembly and freedom of association, including overly restrictive laws on the organization, funding, or operation of nongovernmental organizations and civil society organizations; inability of citizens to change their government peacefully through free and fair elections; serious and unreasonable restrictions on political participation; serious government restrictions or harassment of domestic and international human rights organizations; laws criminalizing consensual same-sex sexual conduct between adults; and outlawing of independent trade unions and significant restrictions on workers’ freedom of association."


 Yemen:  "Significant human rights issues by all parties to the conflict included credible reports of: unlawful or arbitrary killings; enforced disappearances; torture or other cases of cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment; harsh and life-threatening prison conditions; arbitrary arrest and detention; political prisoners and detainees; serious problems with the independence of the judiciary; arbitrary or unlawful interference with privacy; serious abuses in a conflict, including widespread civilian harm and unlawful recruitment or use of child soldiers by all parties to the conflict, particularly the Houthis; serious restrictions on freedom of expression and media, including violence, threats of violence, unjustified arrests or prosecutions against journalists, censorship, and the existence of criminal libel laws; serious restrictions on internet freedom; substantial interference with the freedom of peaceful assembly and freedom of association; severe restrictions of religious freedom; restrictions on freedom of movement; inability of citizens to choose their government peacefully through free and fair elections; serious and unreasonable restrictions on political participation; serious government corruption; serious government restrictions on international human rights organizations; lack of investigation of and accountability for gender-based violence, including but not limited to domestic, intimate partner violence or both, as well as sexual violence; and child, early, and forced marriage and female genital mutilation. There were significant barriers to accessing reproductive health; existence of laws criminalizing consensual same-sex sexual conduct between adults; and existence of the worst forms of child labor.


Impunity for security officials remained a problem, in part because the government exercised limited authority and failed to investigate and prosecute abuse and corruption. Houthi control over former government institutions in the north severely reduced the government’s capacity to conduct investigations. The Houthis continued to benefit from confiscation of state resources, taxes on the business sector, and diversion of humanitarian assistance. The government did not undertake any significant anticorruption activities, while the Houthis continued to misuse former anticorruption authorities to stifle dissent and repress political opponents.


Nongovernmental actors, including the Houthis, tribal militias, and terrorist groups (including al-Qa’ida in the Arabian Peninsula and a local branch of ISIS), committed significant abuses with impunity."

Comments

Anonymous said…
This post reminds me of how defenders of apartheid-era South Africa kept saying that Black Africans were incapable of democracy and ran a bunch of dictatorships, and never mentioned how many dictatorships were propped up by Western powers (for example, Mobutu Sese Seko in Zaire, or Mohammed bin Salman in Saudi Arabia).

Meanwhile, you rule out the possibility of a multi-ethnic state, where everyone has equal rights, in the area between the Jordan and the Mediterranean.

Why?
MOe said…
I know what will work. Hamas is Amalek, so we treat the Palestinians just like thee Amalekites.

Or, if we want to be humane, we can just round them up, kick them out - we'll give them another Nakba.

"Replace Hamas? With What?" A Jewish space in Gaza.
Green Eagle said…
"a multi-ethnic state, where everyone has equal rights, in the area between the Jordan and the Mediterranean."

You know perfectly well that what you want is just a ticket to genocide of all Jews in their ancestral homeland. Your cynical hypocrisy is overwhelming. Why not be honest for once and just call for exterminating Jews, since that is what you really want. And while we're on the subject, funny that you don't object to all the Arab states that crush any attempt to be multi-ethnic? States where nobody has equal rights, something that they are guaranteed in Israel. Let's just add open lying to your other qualities.

And Moe, the Israelis I have known have no problem with an Arab state in Gaza, and really want nothing to do it, as long as that Arab state isn't committed to Jewish genocide.
Larry said…
Green Eagle,

Tell us what you really think of Moe's proposal.

MOe is specifically saying he wants to exterminate the Palestinians of Gaza, but his "humanitarian" alternative is to just kick them out of Gaza and send them to who-knows-where, making Gaza Jewish.

MOe is advocating Palestinian genocide, and you can't even condemn him.

What's the reason you can't condemn plans for genocide? Why can't you tell MOe he's morally wrong?

Green Eagle, you know perfectly well that what you want is just a ticket of all Palestinians in their homeland. Your cynical hypocrisy is overwhelming. And while we're on the subject, funny that you don't object to what the State Department says Israel is doing? Why not be honest for once and just call for exterminating Palestinians, since that is what you really want. Let's just add open lying to your other qualities.

Only someone who wants genocide is cynical enough and morally bankrupt enough to say a call for "multi-ethnic democracy" is the same thing as saying "I want genocide."
Jerome said…
"the Israelis I have known have no problem with an Arab state in Gaza ... as long as that Arab state isn't committed to Jewish genocide."

The Palestinian Authority, which supposedly runs the West Bank, has recognized the right of Israel to exist and will accept a Jewish state.

In return, Israel has expanded illegal settlements in the West Bank, destroyed Palestinian villages in the West Bank, supported Kahanist terrorists in the West Bank, and killed children in the West Bank.

The West Bank isn't committed to Jewish genocide, and still Israel won't let it become a state.

If this is about destroying Hamas, why is Israel bombing the West Bank, too? Hamas isn't there!

And, since the PA is willing to live with a Jewish state, why do you believe a democracy would produce Jewish genocide?
Green Eagle said…
Okay, Larry, here I go. I do not appreciate your sarcastic paraphrase of what I said, because what I said about Hamas is true and what you say about Jews is a malignant, anti-Semitic lie.

Now, as to my own opinion: as I have mentioned here before, I have lived in Israel, not for religious reasons but because of a job. That job took me to many parts of Israel and the West Bank that most tourists, and most Israelis, would never see, including spending quite a bit of time in predominantly Arab areas of Israel like Ramla, south Jafo or east Jerusalem. I had business dealings with Israeli Arabs, Palestinians and Bedouins. I found them to be, virtually without exception, normal people who wanted nothing more than normal people elsewhere want- a decent, secure life. I doubt that you have a shred of direct contact with these people, and every bit of your attitude comes from a massive, multi-decade propaganda campaign financed by Arab dictators.

I am not in favor of exterminating anyone in Gaza, except for those directly involved in the actions of the genocidal Hamas government. I am not in favor of Israel having anything to do with Gaza. Gaza is a piece of beachfront land in the Mediterranean that could have an economy like Singapore or Miami, or to cite an example closer to home, Tel Aviv. Instead, its people are doomed, not by Israel, but by their own government and the malignant involvement of foreign leaders, to suffer lives of hopeless poverty, while their homeland is used as a base to launch genocide against Israelis. It is time for the nations of the world to rectify this situation, and not leave it to Hamas' victims to do the world a service, while they are slandered as monsters for defending themselves. There, that should answer your question, unserious as it was.

Now, I have heard from Moe and Larry. Curly, are you out there to give us your opinion?
Green Eagle said…
Now for Jerome:

"The West Bank isn't committed to Jewish genocide"

Maybe not, but their government is committed to Jewish genocide, and has a decades-long record of trying to achieve just that. You know that perfectly well, yet you spew lies as fast as you can.
Holt the Dolt said…
Stupid questions.

1) If the Arabs of Israel want peace, and if the civilians of Gaza don't want genocide, and the Arabs of the West Bank don't want genocide, and if they are all "normal people," as you say,

Then how would a multi-ethnic democracy like the one Anonymous proposed produce a Jewish genocide? All of the normal Arabs and all of the Jews would be opposed to it, and they would form a solid majority!

2) 85% of Somalia's people are ethnic Somalis. How in the world do you get "Arab country" from that?

3) How do you get "Jews" from Israel when the majority of the world's Jews live in the diaspora, and Larry didn't mention them?
Rachel said…
Some things I think I think.

A) Here .

Anne-Marie Kriek mentioned six specific African countries to argue that Black South Africans could not be trusted with democracy. She complained that South Africa's critics were singling it out when it was oh-so-wonderful for Black people.

Anne-Marie Kriek was wrong. South Africa is a fully functional democracy.

The first anonymous poster asked why Israel/Palestine can't be like South Africa. It could very well have been a good-faith question. Instead, you responded by calling the questioner a genocidal monster.

B) About your reply to Jerome.

Remember the Oslo Accords? Mahmoud Abbas signed his name to them, and agreed to stop terrorism and accept the existence of a Jewish state. That was back in 1993. Seems to me that would be a good indication Mahmoud Abbas - and the current Palestinian Authority - isn't pushing genocide.

Now, you know that Abbas decided to abandon the PA's Oslo obligations in 2020, and I know it, but not everybody knows it. Jerome might not know it. He may honestly be mistaken. In that case, he's not lying.

After 27 years with no independent West Bank, I can understand why Abbas abandoned the Oslo Accords. I don't think I could have waited that long to say, "they'll never let us be independent, screw 'em."

C) Moe's the only commenter so far who genuinely wants genocide. He's also the only commenter you haven't condemned as immoral.

Seems to me there's something wrong there.
St. Joan said…
So many truly delusional, ignorant commenters!
Anonymous said…
From the Pew Research Center:

"Perhaps the strongest indication of the major fractures in Israeli society is that roughly half of Israeli Jews (48%) say Arabs should be transferred or expelled from Israel while a similar share (46%) disagree with this."

https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/03/08/key-findings-religion-politics-israel/
Green Eagle said…
So listen: I posted this material from the State Department as a resource, hoping to get people to reflect on just how degraded governments all over the Arab world are, and how hopeless it is to think that one more will be any better. Of course, a lot of commenters just used it as an excuse to attack Israel in one way or another. No real interest in the stability of not just Gaza but the entire Arab world, as the oil runs out. That takes away my interest in replying.
The first anonymous said…
Anne-Marie Kriek wrote her essay to get people to reflect on just how degraded Black-majority governments all around Africa were, and how hopeless it was to think that one more would be any better.

When I wrote my initial post, I didn't bother searching for essays like Kriek's.

But I remember how people once pointed at all the dictatorships in Latin America (and Spain, too) to argue how Catholics were incapable of democracy.

I remember how people once pointed at all the dictatorships in sub-Saharan Africa (and Haiti, too) to argue how Black people were incapable of democracy.

I thought you were pointing at all the dictatorships in the Arabian world (and Somalia, too) to argue how Arabs were incapable of democracy. It felt like recycled bigotry.

I apologize for my bad phrasing and my misunderstanding you, but I will say I didn't mention Israel at all. That is why your response seemed so bizarre and strange.

Sincerely,
The First Anonymous

P.S. The anti-Catholic bigotry? It often came when people criticized American support of those dictatorships, and was often accompanied by "why aren't you criticizing the Commies, you just hate America." Thank you for reminding me of that.
Infidel753 said…
Granting that most of Latin America and some of sub-Saharan Africa have reformed and become fairly free and democratic, one must grant that the same could happen in the Arab world in the future.

The operative phrase is in the future. If the Arab states and the Palestinian authority do someday reform and become vigorous multi-party secular democracies, with women and Jews having fully equal rights (in reality, not just on paper) as citizens, and sincerely respecting Israel's independence the way European countries that used to be bitter enemies now accept and respect each other -- and if those conditions remain stable for three or four decades so that Israel can be sure the change is permanent -- then Israel might well be more open to some degree of territorial compromise. But such a transformation, if it ever happens, clearly lies quite some ways in the future. And the possibility that it might happen someday is irrelevant to what Israel needs to do now for the security of its people.

We can trust modern Germany and Japan. We couldn't have trusted the Germany and Japan of 1940. The West Bank and the Gaza Strip are not modern Germany and Japan. They're not even modern Mexico and Botswana. Israel needs to behave accordingly.
Green Eagle said…
St Joan: right on.

Infidel and The First Anonymous:

I agree that in the long run people finally become more decent- the Catholics have not had a Crusade in several hundred years, for one example. However, there is a problem only faced by Islam. Both Islam and Christianity regard their founder as a perfect being without mistakes. But Christ was, at least nominally, a man of peace. Mohammed led armies to convert or slaughter non-believers. This will give many of his followers a license to kill in his name, for a long, long time. This sort of slaughter takes place on a larger or smaller scale in many places around the world, not just Israel. I just don't know what time span we are talking about here, before this violent hatred is given up.
Infidel753 said…
The Middle East will probably not reach west European levels of tolerance and peaceful coexistence until it reaches west European levels of secularism -- that is, until the Islamic religion has mostly been cast off and faded away, leaving predominantly non-religious societies. Things are moving in that direction, but it's a change paced in generations, not decades.

And even then, traditional anti-Semitism might well persist for some time. We've seen it flare up even now in mostly-non-religious Europe, though I suspect much of that is emanating from Muslim minorities of immigrant origin (the media have been determinedly uninformative on that aspect of the problem).
Green Eagle said…
Infidel, I agree completely. Eventually people will see what a price they are paying in order to preserve their myths, but with God pulling in the other direction, it's a long battle.

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