Sunday, September 22, 2013

Asymmetry

A few stories from the New York Times this morning:

"Mall Becomes War Zone As Gunmen Kill Dozens In Nairobi Terror Attacks"

Muslims killing non-Muslims at a facility partly owned by Israelis.

"Israeli Soldier Lured Off and Killed"

By a Palestinian hoping to use his dead body to manipulate Israelis into releasing his brother, convicted of a gun attack, from jail.

"3 Coalition Soldiers Shot Dead in Afghanistan"

By Islamic forces, needless to say.

"Suicide Attack Kills Scores in Baghdad"

A Sunni killing at least 72 people at a Shiite funeral

And of course, this one:

"Claiming the Heart of Jerusalem...Small groups of Jews are increasingly ascending the Temple Mount in Jerusalem's Old City..."

Now, just guess which one of these stories, involving over a hundred forty murders, is described as:

"...a provocation that could undermine the fragile peace talks started this summer....Palestinian leaders say the new activity has created the worst tension in memory around the landmark Al Aqsa mosque and the Dome of the Rock, and have called on Muslims to defend the site from "incursions."

Yes, some Jews attempting to pray at their most holy site is far worse than dozens of murders carried out in the name of Islam.  As long as this asymmetrical thinking continues to be acceptable by Muslims, there will be no peace in the Middle East.

9 comments:

Infidel753 said...

They seem to have their own variant on IOKIYAR -- IOKIYAM. But of course anything the Jews do other than cringing subservience is an outrage. The attitude towards the Jews was the same in Europe centuries ago, of course.

(O)CT(O)PUS said...

A Jewish man was riding on the subway reading a Middle East Arabic newspaper.

A friend of his, who happened to be riding in the same subway car, noticed and angrily called out, "Moshe, have you lost your mind? Why are you reading an Arabic newspaper?"

Moshe replied: "I used to read Jewish newspapers, but what did I find? Jews being persecuted worldwide, Israel being attacked, Jews disappearing through assimilation and intermarriage, Jews living in poverty. So I switched to the Arabic newspaper. Now what do I find? Jews own all the banks, Jews control the media, Jews are all rich and powerful, Jews rule the world."

"Ahhh ... The Arabic news is so much better!"

Sam240 said...

Also from the article:

"Israel’s chief rabbinate still maintains the Mount is off limits to Jews — a sign saying so is posted at the gate." So what are the praying Jews doing there in the first place? Aren't they supposed to be listening to their rabbis?

Furthermore,
"A group formed last year calls for building a small synagogue on the plaza. Yehuda Etzion, who was arrested in 1984 for plotting to blow up the Dome of the Rock, and a team of architects are designing a “future Jerusalem” plan with a new temple at its heart."

How convenient that you left out the part of the article which mentions a Zionist terrorist getting involved. I think that's what worries the local Muslims.

Remember how the Israeli government threw a celebration for the 60th anniversary of the King David Hotel bombing, and honored the terrorists who carried it out?

Here's a reprint of the Times of London article, "British Anger at Terror Celebration."
http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=61271
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2006/7/21/42942/0720

The death toll of 91 included 17 Jews. Apparently they have their own variant on IOKIYAR: IOKIYAZ.

-----
Furthermore, I don't see what relevance activities in Kenya, Iraq, and Afghanistan have to peace talks between the Israeli government and Palestinians. People from Kenya, Iraq, and Afghanistan are not involved in the talks.

The only link I can see is: "the people in Kenya, Iraq, and Afghanistan who committed the atrocities belong to the same religion as most Palestinians, so we can't trust the Palestinians." This is just like saying "the leaders of the Ustashe, the military dictators of Argentina, and the people who came up with the Spanish Inquisition belong to the same religion as most of the Republicans in Northern Ireland, so we can't trust the Republicans in Northern Ireland." Neither makes any sense, and to accept either one is rank bigotry.

We are left with one murder committed by a Palestinian. Criminal, yes. But it shouldn't be enough to pose a threat to peace talks (especially when the Israeli government honored the terrorists who once killed 17 Jews in a single bombing). If it is, you have sent a message to any Palestinian who wants to sabotage peace talks: kill a Jew, and we'll grant your wishes.

So, yes, once you think about it, among all of those stories, the ones about the Jews disobeying their rabbis would be the one that would pose the greatest threat to peace talks.

Green Eagle said...

"Aren't they supposed to be listening to their rabbis?"

Jews have no priestly hierarchy, so this jerk isn't speaking for most of them.

"A group formed last year calls for building a small synagogue on the plaza."

Plots like this hatched by idiots of various religions are dreamed up every year. So far, the Israeli authorities have stopped all of them.

"Remember how the Israeli government threw a celebration for the 60th anniversary of the King David Hotel bombing, and honored the terrorists who carried it out?"

The part of the King David Hotel which was bombed was being used as the headquarters of the British Military, which was conducting warfare against Jews in Israel, and was therefore not a terrorist act.

"I don't see what relevance activities in Kenya, Iraq, and Afghanistan have to peace talks between the Israeli government and Palestinians"

Of course you don't. You only see what you want to see, which involves Jews always being the bad guys.

"We are left with one murder committed by a Palestinian. Criminal, yes. But it shouldn't be enough to pose a threat to peace talks"

However, Jews praying on the Temple Mount should be enough to pose a threat to peace talks. The asymmetry of arguments like yours is stunning, and it continually amazes me that people like you refuse to see it, because your hatred of Jews blinds you to reality.

Sam240 said...

Green Eagle said, "Jews have no priestly hierarchy, so this jerk isn't speaking for most of them."

For your information, there are two chief rabbis in the Chief Rabbinate, with thirteen additional rabbis on the Chief Rabbinate Council. That is more than one person. Are you saying that they are all jerks?


Also, note this sentence from the article:

"For years, most authorities on Jewish law said Jews should not enter the complex for fear of treading on the ancient temple’s holiest spots, but recent archaeological work has led some liberal and even moderate Orthodox rabbis to lift those bans."

[ http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/22/world/middleeast/jews-challenge-rules-to-claim-heart-of-jerusalem.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 ]



Remove "some rabbis" from "most authorities" and you are still left with most rabbis saying Jews shouldn't enter the complex. Are you saying that the majority of rabbis are jerks? In that case, wouldn't that make you the anti-Semite? In my experience, the rabbis I have met tend to be nice people.

Green Eagle wrote,
"The part of the King David Hotel which was bombed was being used as the headquarters of the British Military, which was conducting warfare against Jews in Israel, and was therefore not a terrorist act."

The southern wing was destroyed, and only the top floor of that wing was used by the British Military. There were many other floors destroyed which were not used by the British Military. The actual bombs were placed in La Regence Cafe, which was a cafe, not a military area. Planting bombs in a hotel cafe is terrorism, and only an extremist can argue otherwise.

Furthermore, by your reasoning, since the U.S. Military was conducting warfare against Muslims in the Middle East, the attack on the Pentagon on 9/11 should not be a criminal attack.

I wrote, "I don't see what relevance activities in Kenya, Iraq, and Afghanistan have to peace talks between the Israeli government and Palestinians"

To which Green Eagle nonsensically replied, "Of course you don't. You only see what you want to see, which involves Jews always being the bad guys."

Where did I say that Jews were responsible for the crimes in Kenya, Iraq, and Afghanistan? Only an anti-Semite could make that claim.

Green Eagle has failed to show how these incidents are relevant to peace talks. No Palestinians were involved in the crimes in Kenya, Iraq, and Afghanistan, so it stands to reason that what happened there should have no relevance to the peace talks.

There's only explanation I can see for claiming that they do have relevance: "some Muslims are terrorists, therefore no Palestinians can be trusted." This is like saying that Croat war criminals, ETA terrorists, and Timothy McVeigh were all Catholics, so we can't trust Sinn Fein. It is like saying that Irgun committed a terrorist act when it bombed a hotel and killed 17 Jews in the process, so we ought to dismantle the town of Kiryas Joel. All such arguments are rank bigotry.

Green Eagle wrote, "However, Jews praying on the Temple Mount should be enough to pose a threat to peace talks."

I never said they should pose a threat to peace talks. One murder by an isolated individual shouldn't pose a threat, either.

However, of the stories mentioned, only two of them dealt with Israel and Palestine, and thus only those two should be candidates for "biggest threat to the peace process."

Your reduction of the story to it being just about Jews praying is dishonest. The story itself states, "activists have stepped up their campaign for access and prayer at the Temple Mount, part of a broader push to cement Jewish control of all of Jerusalem." According to Haaretz, Yehuda Etzion's plan doesn't just involve destroying the Dome of the Rock; it involves a Jerusalem without Arabs.

[ http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/week-s-end/building-a-palestinian-free-kingdom-1.387179 ]

Sam240 said...

[Continuation]

As I mentioned earlier, it's the fact that terrorists like Yehuda Etzion are getting involved in the movement that's the scary part.

Given one story that involves several terrorists, and another which involves a single, unattached individual, the former would seem to pose the greater threat to the peace process. If we have a group of Protestants who are bent on the destruction of the largest Catholic church in Belfast, and an individual Catholic who kills a single British soldier because his brother is in jail, it would be the group of Protestants who would pose the biggest threat to the Northern Ireland peace process. I used the same reasoning to judge which of the two situations represented the greater threat to the Israel-Palestine peace process.

Note that Green Eagle did not explain "what relevance activities in Kenya, Iraq, and Afghanistan have to peace talks between the Israeli government and Palestinians." Instead of taking the time to explain, Green Eagle smeared me as being anti-Semitic. If there is a link other than the only one I saw -- the one which would be anti-Muslim bigotry (perhaps unconscious) on the part of Green Eagle -- tell me what it is.

Green Eagle said...

Hey, Sam, this is my blog, and I am not going to waste my time going over what everyone with a brain knows about the Middle East, in order to engage in a quixotic attempt to set straight an ignorant and very prejudiced fool.

How much time have you spent in the Middle East? I have lived and worked there, and had plenty of contact with Palestinians and Israeli Arabs. I've sat drinking mint tea with Bedouins in their tents and worked in the West Bank. My relations with real Palestinians were invariably cordial and constructive. So don't accuse me of having some sort of anti-Arab or anti-Muslim bias. In fact, it is people like you, I believe, who are the real racists toward Arabs, a fact which you display every time you do not hold them to the same standards of conduct that you demand from Westerners. The Arabs I have known are adults, not children (except of course, the ones who were actually children.) They often live in very difficult circumstances which make it hard for them to make the right choices, but they are intelligent and competent people who want to live decent lives just like the rest of us.

Sam240 said...

You did not ask us to guess which story detailed the worst crimes. It is obvious to anyone with a brain that the three worst crimes were in Kenya, Iraq, and Afghanistan. You specifically asked us to guess which story is described as "a provocation that could undermine the fragile peace talks started this summer."

I believe our mutual misunderstanding of each other has led to this problem. I'm not talking about which story is about the greatest crime, while you seem to be under the apprehension that I am.

All I want is the answer to one question:

How are crimes in Kenya, Iraq, and Afghanistan relevant to the Israeli-Palestinian peace process when none of the criminals were Israelis or Palestinians, and none of the three countries mentioned even border Israel?

I have asked it twice, and failed to receive an answer.

Sam240 said...

Furthermore,

I apologize for the name-calling.

As noted above, I was interpreting you as wanting us to identify "the greatest threat to the peace process," while you were trying to identify the "greatest crime." In this case, the I believe that two are obviously very different things. I believe this was the source of our problems.

Could we return to being civil now?